You know when you’re doing the washing, and the bottle of washing liquid emits a random bubble? You watch that bubble float around before either you pop it or it decides to give up on its existence by landing on some surface in micro-explosive glory.
Well, this has nothing to do with that. OK, just not with the washing bit. But let’s talk bubbles. Slightly bigger ones.
Our communities are developing and vibrant. Areas such as London’s Tower Hamlets present a haven of (particularly psychological) security by the strengthening of a close knit and supportive community. My couple of years in these parts have taught me to appreciate the comfort of a zone where often practically anyone can be considered family. The senior ethnic minority men and women on the streets are your aunties and uncles, and those nearer your age are your brothers and sisters. And you address them as such and even speak the tongue if you can. No feeling can be more secure than that of feeling you are amongst family.
And of course the work within the community is remarkable. The East London Mosque and London Muslim Centre, amongst others, are exemplary for the community and faith projects they undertake and the positive unity they represent. These centres are such assured environments to be in – surrounded by our Muslim brothers, sisters, teachers and role models. Individuals we understand and relate to, in faith and often ethnicity. They’re one of us, we’re one of them and everyone’s happy.
However, at which point do we step back and consider that perhaps we are getting a little too comfortable? That this model of comfort is such that we prefer staying within it and it keeps us rather separate from the real world? My washing liquid bubble manifests: I think we may have formed a pretty big one around us.
I have no objections to the community spirit; long may it live. But I do believe there is something unwholesome and impractical in boxing ourselves within it. It can lend to a certain approach and thinking that is constricted in community centricity and at times incongruous with the wider society we live in.
If we are to continually live surrounded by those who live, think and are like us, it can minimise the scope for broadening our minds and effectively interacting with those of different cultures, backgrounds and faiths. And as such it also means we compromise on an essential role we are meant to fulfil; dawah. As Muslims it is our duty to reach out to others, to engage and interact with the wider community for the cause of dawah and our own development and awareness.
Ignorance breeds misunderstanding, and staying generally amongst ourselves will do little to mutually strengthen our understanding, perception and relations with others in the rich cosmopolitan society we live in. And it does little to improve our position both as one of the most misunderstood faith communities in the world today and also as duaat.
Particularly for Islamic workers I believe that to this end it is necessary to not simply be capable of thinking outside of the community box, but to pointedly live and work outside it too, along with working within it. Living outside gives exposure and enables interaction, without preventing us from working within the community also. Living in the midst of the community can lead to a complacency that prevents us from making the effort to step outside of it and engage.
To take an example – and I can’t be the only one to have noticed this – London’s Tower Hamlets Muslim community, one of the largest and most vibrant in the city, seems to have a remarkable reputation amongst other Muslim Londoners for ‘not leaving Tower Hamlets’ and considering anywhere outside the [significantly Muslim] borough to be ‘too far.’ It is not a baseless reputation and is symptomatic of a community that has developed a self-contained comfort zone.
We should actively take the approach to strike a balance between community activism and wider engagement by consciously making the effort to live outside it whilst maintaining involvement within it. But not enough of us have taken that step, to pierce the bubble and extract ourselves – in body and mind.
It could take courage and initiative. After all, it’s pretty secure and convenient knowing you live across the road from the Imam who teaches your children and next door to the aunty who cooks the world’s best curries and always sends some over. But it is essential that we do, for the good of ourselves and our communities.
Excellent, masha’Allah. Keep it up!
Why build a massive mosque and then move out?
Zafar – unless you live right next door to the ‘massive mosque’, you probably won’t actually use it on a daily basis. E.g. If living in Stepney, Lime house or Bow, you are more likely to pray locally.
The point is that if we spread out a bit more, we could engage with wider society better, but also be able to come back to the massive mosque to help its activities too.
The current chariman of the massive mosque lives near Tooting. This doesn’t stop him from contributing here.
@Zafar Key word is ‘London’ Muslim Centre. The massive mosque is designed to serve a large geographic area.
And you’ve proven her point about comfort zone – there’s always a reason to stick around. If it wasn’t the nice mosque, it would be something else.
I think it is not entirely accurate to assume that everyone somehow closes themselves off in their ‘bubble’ and doesn’t venture out. That’s a conclusion that’s very subjective and based upon individual observations, experiences and standards.
A muslim who goes out to work in Essex from East London or has friends and family there or ventures out there for whatever reason may appear to be contained in his ‘bubble’ to someone who regularly travels to say Leicester. Likewise, a person who travels to Europe regularly as part of his job may look upon a person who only travels as far as Leicester as living in a ‘bubble’.
But more importantly, there is absolutely nothing abnormal or undesired for someone to work in and within his community. That’s for Muslims and non-muslims, and is the natural way of a society and *community*. You are naturally comfortable with where you live, that’s the nature of living and that’s what we call home so there’s nothing wrong with working and moving around your locality and community. that doesn’t mean Muslims are holed up in the ELM area (even if it is the most populated area of Muslims), far from it. In fact, the ‘massive mosque’ cam about due to the surrounding area being so full of Muslims (Banglatown) due to spontaneous demographics. And as there are Muslims in East London, so there are communities in West, South, and North London. It is strange to assume that none of these communities has ventured outside to another, or lacks connections with ‘wider London’.
After all we’re commanded to do da’wah ultimately with what’s on our doorsteps so our focal point should be our locality. If the ‘massive mosque’ is our locality, then that’s our work area (though not exclusively). If it’s in Luton somehwere, then that;s our work area. But yes, venturing outside and experiencing what life is like outside your community is healthy for one’s development and understanding, but it is unfounded to claim that Muslims in our communities do no do that, or that to do so we have to move out or something!
In my opinion, this is just feeding into the flimsy right-wing claim that Muslims seperate themselves in their ghettos. In truth, they simply do not like the fact we are a communal people that believe in ‘jama’ah’ and pray with each other and look out for reach other etc. In their view, this a ‘ghetto’, and to us, it is called community. And it also points fingers wrongly at Muslims alone, expecting something totally unnatural which no one else, muslim or non-muslim, is doing. Do non-muslim communities start blaming themselves that they are confining themselves to their areas of living and creating their bubbles when they clearly have their local pubs and local community centres and local history etc.?
@Londoner:
It is not that everyone is in a bubble, but some are.
It is not that it is abnormal to be in your community, but we need to reach out more.
It is not about finger pointing at Muslims alone, in fact we spend plenty of time blaming everyone else (media, zionists, freemasons), so a bit of community muhasaba is not a bad thing.
As you said, it is healthy to venture out, so fundamentally we are all in agreement. I agree one doesn’t have to move out to improve our dawah outreach, but sometimes it helps.
However, lets first start by getting to know that non-Muslim neighbour on our street. That innocent fellow child of Adam who feels a little threatened by the Muslim dominance in his area. Let’s reassure him/her that they have nothing to fear…
I understood the point and those ’some’ that do live in a bubble good for them.
At the end of the day some people like to travel and some don’t. Some people like to live with their friends and families others don’t. Some people like to give dawah openly others don’t, some people like to go on demo’s others don’t. I am sure the author has written the article sincerely – but there are ’some’ that believe that ‘us’ muslims do not integrate enough, i.e. assimilate! Glad its ’some’ assimilate!
As for non-muslims feeling threatened, yes we should do as much as we can – but we should also know that much of the fear is created by design by the likes of right wing neo cons (melanie phillips, cohen, QF cocnuts etc) and NOT by the muslims.
@Zafar, I understand your point about some calling for greater Muslim ‘assimilation’, but I am neither calling for that nor advocating it. My point is increasing interaction to promote mutual understanding. As I say, ignorance breeds misunderstanding and also fear. And just as we may be told that non-Muslims feel threatened by us as they don’t know or understand us enough, it’s also true that we may feel threatened by them because we don’t understand them enough. The need is both ways.
As for the fear being exacerbated by right wing neo-cons, I couldn’t agree with you more. All the more reason for us to work to counter their fear-mongering by directly proving to our non-Muslim neighbours what we are really about.
Good blog, more ta’aruf is needed!!
“The need is both ways”
Ameen – to that!
Jazakillah khayer for your article and comment.
Indeed the need is both ways but as Muslims ours is the responsibility.
Is that the medic? Ahtaaju ilaa mus’if hunaa! shuuhidal qannaas fil mantiqah!
“Ignorance breeds misunderstanding, and staying generally amongst ourselves will do little to mutually strengthen our understanding, perception and relations with others in the rich cosmopolitan society we live in. And it does little to improve our position both as one of the most misunderstood faith communities in the world today and also as duaat.” lubaaba.
There IS a duty of da’wah on the muslims, yes, yet the muslims shouldn’t attack or blame their own community for the disbelievers’ islamophobia or ignorance/intolerance for their minority ‘guest’ communities.
This is a question about balance. The muslim must be concerned with faith/self preservation first before embarking on missions of da’wah into territories where he may be exposed to the elements or be forced to abandon aspects of their deen. Classically, the ulaama/umaraa hand selected some of their best men/most suitable men to spread into the areas they hadn’t covered before. Not every ordinary joe was required of fulfilling this duty.
Also, in light of all the islamophobia and violent attacks, it is only natural to see our community staying where they feel safer. In fact, this is how the community survived since migration to the UK as did every other foreign community including the jews. Expansion or spreading out is a natural process and happens on a basis of need. E.g. Many bangladeshis are moving out of TH and going to redbridge, ilford and other areas like barking.
In fairness, muslims should venture out of their comfort zone so that they can APPRECIATE how blessed their existing environment is. This must be without getting hoodwinked or lulled into a false sense of complacency that their community is complete and that they need to move on. There is much to list from the diseases that our community suffers from such as drugs, prostitution, domestic violence, alcohol abuse which needs our attention.
More importantly, are we satisfied that we have discharged our duty to all the non muslims in towerhamlets? Far from it i would think…
“But I do believe there is something unwholesome and impractical in boxing ourselves within it… Living in the midst of the community can lead to a complacency that prevents us from making the effort to step outside of it and engage” lubaaba.
You raise some good points but in reference to some not so good examples. For example, ‘engage’ with whom? The wider society or non muslims in general? Surely, not nearly enough of us have studied comparative religions or perform missionary work to engage nonmuslims IN towerhamlets or those living ‘outside the box’. I am the first at fault as we simply have not engaged in the work of people such as Dr ahmad deedat (RHA) and Dr Zakir Naik (HHA) have done. I believe we often mix up da’wah with hisbah (amru bil ma’roof wannahi ‘anil munkar). Da’wah is really only to non muslims… It is hisbah or islaah to the muslims.
Btw, muslim population in the UK reaches very far and wide, even in almost every major city in europe! All this by means of migration often for economical reason or for asylum. Atleast we can’t say that muslims haven’t tried to integrate. Unfortunately, there are many evidences of some level of integration. Most of them but not all, are unislamic examples.
Such as the abandoning of hijaab, we celebrate their festivals, we even sell and serve them their drinks and we even drink our fair share too. We listen to their music and our youth dress and talk like them. Our youth believe more firmly in the values of the west than those of Islaam. Many even married ‘english’ gals here (yajooz). We even have muslim comedians and the odd comedienne who perform for non muslim audiences.
The matter of venturing outside the box will not be a problem in a generation or two’s time. We may have completely lost our identity and culture by then. The bengali presenter of Blue Peter goes to Bangladesh to see her mom but cannot speak her language. Her mother was in tears. This was years ago! Look at Eid in the square… Muslim women singing in frocks and giving aadhaan. We have a couple of MPs and or Lords in the house. The queen even knights honorable members of the muslim community. I think there are many more examples of muslim recognition on a national level. Even the president of the US is called Hussain and lived for some time in the most populated muslim country in the world.
We will definately be living out of the box in a couple of generations time. I believe the real problem is tabloid style scaremongering (that many da’ee muslims are buying into) that muslims are creating many mini khilaafah states/ghettos/no go areas in boroughs like TH or in cities such as bradford or oldham. On question time a few years ago, a terrified member of the audience said to an official person from the education dept who was sitting on dimbleby’s panel something along the line that young muslims are getting radicalised/brainwashed in the ghettos of london. The panelist smiled wrily and said to the effect, ‘don’t panic, we have the rest of these youth every day seven days a week between the hours of 9 – 5 at school.”
This is an old trick of the ‘kafars’ since colonialism that they make the ‘moslem’ community feel guilty and responsible for the ignorance and intolerance of the non muslims. It’s also known as the inferiority complex. With them or with us mentality… I believe we should rip ourselves out of precisely THIS type of box and not the one that sr lubaaba describes.
Sorry for the long post(article lol). I hope i didn’t insult the author nor any of the posters here.
Salam br Mawdudi and jazakAllah for your comment. Just a couple of points:
Not all dawah is missionary work and preaching. Simply interacting politely or being helpful to a non-Muslim, or any other such simple human thing can be dawah. In fact it is often more effective than direct preaching. And it is this that I am primarily referring to as ‘interaction’. That in itself can be sufficient to show non-Muslims how human we are and how beautiful our religion is – by the very character is develops in us. And we don’t need to be qualified ulema to do that.
I understand your points about self-preservation. That is why I suggested living out/increasing interaction is important particularly for Islamic workers – those who possess a level of self-development, knowledge and activism to be able to maintain themselves in a challenging environment.
Much as Islamophobia and scaremongering by the tabloid press etc is a true reason for the alienation of Muslims and Islam [and I don't dispute that at all], it is also easy to hide behind those reasons in abdication of our own responsibilities and avoidance of some healthy community muhasaba. Yes, there are significant external forces at work, but that doesn’t take away our own shortcomings either nor our responsibility. And with external forces alienating us as such, all the more reason for us to counter it by proving to our neighbours our true nature rather than shrinking further into our communities. The question certainly is about balance – a balance between recognising threat and appreciating failings.
I also believe that it isn’t simply about them understanding us, but also about us understanding them. End of the day, every disbeliever is a potential brother or sister in Islam and [at the very least] a fellow child of Adam. We need to learn to appreciate that rather than shunning them by dividing ourselves quite so sharply into ‘them/the west/the kuffar’ and ‘us’. And appreciating or understanding people is not to be misinterpreted as favouring them over our own communities.
@Mawdudi If you’re so scared and want to preserve your deen from contamination, maybe you should leave the country? All these Moslems are going to be assimilated anyway right (according to you)? Better leave while you can.
Abdalla? A name like griffin, nick griffin is better suited for you. You spew the same type of rubbish that comes out of the mouths of arrogant racist scum. For all we know, you may just BE a self assumed superior nazi abusing a beautiful name like abdalla.
Why else would one muslim tell another to leave a country that he himself originally migrated to? How dare you son? Who gives you the right to ask another fellow to get out, eh? Almost as if you have a monopoly on british residence. I may not agree with mawdudi but i won’t need to be nasty towards him like you abdalla. You make me sick for saying the kind of stuff that your parents had to put up with only a few years ago when the skinheads used to tell THEM to leave. Very foolish of you… but then again, very liberal… or dare I say progressive/moderate?
You are too full of yourself mate
who needs the national front when we have muslims like you abdalla? You are a colonised moslem that you feel you can effectively tell another one of your own to ‘get out’.
@Submission hold –
“I may not agree with mawdudi but i won’t need to be nasty towards him like you abdalla.”
Yes you’re right, but you’re commiting the same mistake with your own even harsher comments.
Really, one of the reasons we’re in the state we’re in is that we are incapable of showing each other’s opinions respect, even if we disagree.
@Abdalla
Abdullah, Albullah, Abdullah you again seem not to have changed one bit. Still spouting the same old rubbish like you did before. I still remember that you said to me “ignorant reaciotnaries like you do more damage than good to the islamic cause. you seem to think we live in the medevil period. why don’t you go live in afghanistan – which is the closest tribal culture to the early islamic period. it might be to your liking”
And now it seems you are making the same point again with you follwing statement “If you’re so scared and want to preserve your deen from contamination, maybe you should leave the country? All these Moslems are going to be assimilated anyway right (according to you)? Better leave while you can.”
You just never change believe me if you posted on this forum with the name John or Peter every one else would straight away say you are a racist and this is their mentality. But what i turly cant believe is that you post as a muslim but still say this rubbish. Why should we leave the country? This seems to be your only solution to any problem that arises.
@Lubaaba
Your point seems to be biased althought correct? Since i have been having this same problem with abdullah before i only see it fit that he is collectivley condemnd for this kind of abuse. Abdullah cannot enter into a discussion without becoming abusive and foulmothed spouting abuse the exact characteristics of the munafiqueen; May Allah protect us all and i pray we never attain any of these atributes. AMEEN
I didn’t mean to be biased, and I hope it won’t be taken as such. My observation is general that we need to show each other respect and I hope everyone will observe that.
However, I don’t see the misbehaviour of one individual as justification for that of another, either. If we are to correct someone, it is with wisdom and good speech. Otherwise we are no better. So by all means advise people, but let’s do it properly.
@Shaykh Wiki Can you please get my name right. It is Abdalla, not Abdullah, Albullah or the other things you are calling me. How would you like it if I called you Short Weird?
How you write names does say a lot about you…the Asian-centric mentality. Not every Muslim is an Asian, and not everyone that tells people who non-Muslims, to get out of the country, is a bigot.
Yes there are many problems for Muslims here in the UK, but it’s a lot better than many other countries. Those who go on and on about their dislike of non-Muslims have an option. Leave the country – do Hijra.
That is a legitimate opinion, why should I be condemned? And what right do you have to call for a collective condemnation? Have you heard of freedom of speech? I’d suggest you read some books on freedom of speech from an Islamic perspective (Freedom of Expression in Islam by MH Kamali or even Human Rights in Islam by Maududi). As long as I don’t break the rules, I have every right to come on here and comment as you. As noted by Lubaba – you complain about me, but you end up using same language.
And also you do seem a bit sensitive, holding grudges and making wild accusations. Can you name how exactly I’ve been abusive or foulmouthed? It may not be polite – but calling someone ignorant is an opinion; calling someone stupid is not abusive or foul. So let’s get things in perspective.
And finally a correction, I think you will find munafiqeen are not foulmouthed or abusive. Hypocrties are by definition publicly nice people… it’s what they get upto behind the scenes that is a problem.
@Abdalla
Firstly my incorrect spelling of your name was a typo error there was no malice in it. Secondly Lubaaba’s point about committing the same mistake was not directed to me if you correctly look back she was referring to submission hold.
My next point is that you have made many point about leaving the country, you are speaking as if you own the country and that it’s your god given right to expel people. You mentioned freedom of speech – but yet you fail to recognise the British freedom of speech which allows you to criticise and complain about other people/government which falls under freedom of speech – so why does one need to leave the country when it is their right to speak out according to western values as well as Islamic values.
You feel that anyone who is not in agreement with you and question your views should pack their bags and leave “YOUR COUNTRY” and that other peoples views are not welcome. Also that other peoples views are not islamic since they “cause harm to the islamic cause” as mentioned by yourself. This is not personal this is a matter of speaking the truth and speaking out against unjust people like your self.
And obviously you have not read the hadith of ‘Abdullah bin ‘Amr which outlines the 4 characteristics of the munafiqueen. Of which one is when they argue/disagree they become foulmouthed/abusive/unjust.
Sr Lubaaba, it appears that you have singled out Submission for his ‘response’ to abdullaah. If you disapprove of bad manners or insensitivity, you should reprimand them both instead of simply selecting one individual. You need to read your posts to see that you have not been fair, almost as though you approve of abdullaah’s remark.
More importantly, you seem to not have responded to any of the points raised by Mawdudi.
1. Are the muslims blameworthy for the intolerance and fear that the nonmuslims feel towards them?
2. Why is it innapropriate or harsh to speak of those who disbelieve in allaah as Kuffar/disbelievers/unbelievers/non muslims? Esp if they acknowledge their own disbelief by their own tongues and allaah and his messenger have referred to them like so too.
3. Is it really a duty on the muslims to ensure that kuffar don’t feel afraid of them? i.e. muslims must bend over backwards to clarify the nonmuslims’ stereotypes, intolerance/ignorance.
4. Is it an obligation on all the muslims to expose their faith and selves to danger by venturing out into unchartered territories? Who are the selected du’aat? What qualities must they possess? Who selects them?
5. Are da’wah and hisbah the same thing?
6. Will it ever be possible to please or satisfy everyone? Do you not agree that there will always remain a core number of disbelievers in permanent opposition to allah’s deen, despite all our efforts? (in light of the quraan and sunnah).
Your responses were sensible but irrelevant to the questions/points mawdudi raised. I do not want to waste my time on talking about the response of abdullaah, which carried no substance, was full of arrogance, didn’t respond to any of the points raised and one who is not aware about the qualities of the munaafiqeen. (i do not approve of calling him ’similar to the munaafiqeen’ but I DO approve of calling him by his properly spelt name which, if he wasn’t so arabesque would have been spelt ‘abdullaah as opposed to abdalla)
Shukran jazeelan
@Miqdaad So the inquisition has started (again).
These are pointless questions, you obviously and clearly know what you think are answers to these questions. Lubaaba has expressed her opinions very clearly. It doesn’t take a genious to figure out she doesn’t agree with you.
But the best question is 4: “Is it an obligation on all the muslims to expose their faith and selves to danger by venturing out into unchartered territories? Who are the selected du’aat? What qualities must they possess? Who selects them?”
What a wimp, who considers Muslims majority areas and neighbourhoods to be some kind of fortifications. And that other areas are unchartered territories! You probably never get out at all do you? No wonder you have such views. You need to get out more.
The writer appears to be saying that Muslims in East London have isolated themselves and created an illusory world around themselves. They have ‘boxed’ themselves up in a ‘bubble’ away from the ‘real world’.
I believe this is a wholly inaccurate and unfair observation first of all of the Muslims community. Muslims spend so much of their time engaged in life amongst non-muslims that to say otherwise is fallacious. One of the other comments has elaborated on the real situation of the Muslim community; the fear that the community is losing its religious identity amidst all the daily non-muslim influences and lack of Islamic influiences (be it through TV, school, music, workplace, etc.). It is not to say that Muslims therefore should not live in a place where these are the circumstances, as Muslims can very well live and adapt to this situation, and have every right to live in what is their homeland. But rather, it is to say that Muslims adapt exactly by creating environments and communities where they can fall back into; an environment that is conducive to the teachings of Islam AFTEr having spent an entire day outside his comfort zone in the so-called ‘real world’. If spending 10 hours a day, 5 days a week in a city office as the only Muslim, or in university alongside tens of other non-Muslim colleageus and classmates, or on a research project in a non-Muslim learning institution is not enough, it is concerning to imagine what the writer is referring to by the ‘real world’. This is something every Muslim is doing; one ventures out to work in his office the entire day in the city perhaps, and then returns home in the evening to a house which he has made an Islamic home, and then goes to salah in a masjid which he has helped build for his own well being and that of his children. Are we to deny him this? Somebody else – a non-muslim perhaps – may ‘retreat’ from the day-time world to his home which is one conducive to his hbbies of music, drugs, and drining. He may venture out into the local pubs he has contributed to building.
If spending 10 hours a day, 5 days a week in a city office as the only Muslim, or in university alongside tens of other non-Muslim colleageus and classmates, or on a research project in a non-Muslim learning institution is not enough, it is concerning to imagine what the writer is referring to by the ‘real world’.
Thus, for the Muslim to adapt and engage to his ‘wider society’ in a healthy manner (i.e. not end up as a ‘coconut’) and grow in his deen, to nurture his children and to remain firm to his identity, he requires these ‘fall-back’ points or his Islamic comfort zones which are all praiseworthy. If he was however living in a masjid 24/7 then perhaps our advice to him to ‘venture out’ would have been applicable. however, the reality is the exact opposite; a society which has naturally engaged in its wider society (be it through school, college, work , etc.) but from which many have failed to retain their Islamic identity with generations of youngsters growing up confused with regards to their religion. The masaajid, the learning institutions, etc. are all there to address and remedy this.
Therefore:
1. Condemning the community as ‘boxing’ themselves in is a wholly inaccurate and unjustified declaration; we all are forced to engage with our non-muslim neighbours whether we like it or not, and we are in fact not spending enough time within our communities or in our masaajid or learning our deen.
2. For Muslims to adapt to their society in a healthy manner while remaining true to their Islamic identity, these scarce community services we have created for ourselves are very necessary and urgent.
If after all this, the argument is simply to say we must engage in da’wah more and ’smile at that fellow son-of-Adam’ more, then this is something everyone fully agrees with, just as we must pray more and learn more knowledge and fast more etc. it is a collective duty on the community which we must try to improve…but to say this doesn’t at all require all that talk about ‘boxes’, ‘bubbles’ or illusions as there are no boxes or bubbles except in the incorrect perception of the writer (with all respect). But nevertheless we can all still improve on our da’wah (with the correct conditions of course).
In other words, nothing needs to change except for us to up our da’wah hours; when we’re in college/uni, express Islam properly, when in the workplace, deal with our colleagues in a manner which reflects Islamic teachings, etc. But of course, this is something we have all grown up hearing and knowing, and again, the talk about bubbles and boxes has no relevance in it.
Wallahu A’lam.
the racist and arrogant bigot speaks again, once more with no argument or anything beneficial to respond to the discussion with but more simple insults and ego superiority.
‘get out a bit more’??? … mate, it looks to me like you got out too early, premature, if you know what i mean, son.
i happen to agree with wiki and mawdudi and am yet to see
a) a more unbiased response from the author and
b) a more substantial, point by point discussion to what migdaad raised
btw, abdullah, shut yer mug u self proclaimed smart a$$ cos big men hiding behind the safety of the internet have always proven to be the big wimps in REAL life. atleast sr lubaaba was decent albiet quite biased against me.
the first part was directed at abdullaah, the one who spelt his own name wrong.
@Muslim
Jezek’Allah khair for that post. Very interesting points to think about.
@submission hold So who is the vile one using foul lanaguage? Didn’t take long to reveal your true colours and character.
Do you not feel ashamed of your ignorant, illogical remarks? You keep of accusing Lubaaba of being biased… she is not a judge, nor is mediating between us. You and one or two others accused me of foul language etc (ironic), she made two comments about this,
“but you’re commiting the same mistake with your own even harsher comments.”
“I don’t see the misbehaviour of one individual as justification for that of another”
Anyone with basic English can see that she isn’t a fan of my comments! ’same mistake’ means she thinks I was wrong also.
For this, you accuse her of bias? Uneducated people and who are too dumb to understand basic English should not comment here and make false accusations.
Btw, if you check Lubaaba’s info, it says she is a student of the English language.
And why would she be biased towards me? I do not know her, have never met her etc etc. What you probably mean is that because you obviously disagree with her, she’s got something against you… she will obviously agree with people who support her views. That’s the whole point duh.
And on what grounds do you call me a racist and bigot? Because I said if you have seige mentality you should do hijra? How is that racist or bigotted? Again it is a intellectual deficeit on your part.
@Miqdaad Instead of asking these silly questions, why don’t you answer them yourself and set out your own points. Its obvious what Lubaaba thinks. If you have alternative view, set it out man! Like ‘Muslim’ has done nicely. He’s made some good points.
Miqdaad I’m really interested to know the answer to your point 4: “Is it an obligation on all the muslims to expose their faith and selves to danger by venturing out into unchartered territories? Who are the selected du’aat? What qualities must they possess? Who selects them?”
ABDULLAH (yes i have spelt it ABDULLAH because the english spelling means nothing and does not change the meaning of the word. You name is an arabic name just like muhammed many people spell it differently but it does not make a difference) You obviously have not heard the strory of the companions who when they departed the company of the prophet and returned to their families and homes felt their emaan weaken and felt this was due to hyprocicy. Uponfurther investigation the prophet revealed that this is what happens when you move away from brothers your emaan decreases and when you are with brothers it increases. Also you seem to have not heard of the hadith of the lone sheep which is devoured by the wolf.
So who are the calling the whimp for seeking strenght in staying within (YES) a fortification of east london, where we are amongst brothers who strengthen our emaan and the more we venture out our emaan wears away and can eventually lead to the total loss of emaan (something which i have witnissed first hand in people who have ventured out). So i suppose that the companion whos emaan weakened when he was not in the company of brothers/prophet was a whimp and obviously your strenght of emaan is greater than that of the companions.
I am not in total opposition to lubaaba’s post but feel it was not balanced enough. There seemes to be too much of a push on ourselves to please and ease the hearts of the KUFFAR (yes they are disbelivers not potential muslims). There is an element of dawah we give in words and actions afterwhich we should not worry what “they” think of us. If we have this attitude then soon we will say let the sisters abondon hijab and the brothers stop grwoing breads so we do not make our “potential muslims” uneasy. Where will it end?
i do not want to waste my time on pathetic point scoring as engaged by abdullaah. not making any substantial contribution to the discussion demonstrates that you wish to prove superiority over others. therefore, i don’t respond to abdullaah.
i leave my questions open for response and muslim has added and rephrased similar points. much impressed by his post maashaa allaah.
lastly, my questions directed at lubaaba are for lubaaba, so as long as lubaaba hasn’t employed abdullaah to be her spokesperson (waste of money to be honest with you) then abdullaah is kindly requested to not respond on her behalf and should just speak for himself.
with peace
@Shaykh Wiki Your abuse of hadith and seera is shocking, and totally lacks context. If it wasn’t so serious I’d be laughing.
The issue regarding level of iman has nothing to do with where one lives. The lesson from the hadith is to keep the company of good people who will encourage us towards good. Nor is this issue related to courage. So let’s not spin the issue…if you personally feel you will loose your iman without being surrounded by Muslim people, then that is your choice. But that isn’t a rule or guide for others.
Btw, East London isn’t a Muslim utopia where only good prevails. High crimes rates, abortion, drugs need I go on? It’s in the news for all the wrong reasons. But yes there are also good people around and a strong sense of Muslim community. So it all depends on one’s circumstances.
Treating east London as sort of fort is totally silly and ignorant of the facts and history. Forts have a military function to protect from outside agression or invasion. East london is a small geographic area with a large concentration of Muslims – BUT still minority Muslim.
About the Kuffar. Your attitude is Yahudi and you should correct yourself. Non-Muslims are both Kuffar and potential Muslims. Yes they can be both at the same time. If our ancestors had this attiude we would never be Muslims. It is the responsibility of all muslims to be duaat – not just the scholars. If you read Islamic history, most of the early conversions in foreign lands were through Muslim businessmen who were ‘good Muslims’.
There is one group of people who practise what you’re preacing, that is the Yahud. That is why they are a small community who treat non-Jews are gentiles and not potential Jews. Muslims are by faith a missionary people.
Finally you should be consistent. If you insist on spelling my name in its phonetically correct way. Then you should write ‘Muhammad’ (not muhammEd), that is the correct haraka for the prophet’s name.
I wouldn’t jump to the defence of Miqdaad who i accused of being a ‘wimp’ (not whimp which is not an English word), his argument is totally different. He said “4: Is it an obligation on all the muslims to expose their faith and selves to danger by venturing out into unchartered territories? Who are the selected du’aat? What qualities must they possess? Who selects them?”
He is scared that someone will physically attack him! That is why he is a wimp. And he doesn’t know his Islamic history, there isn’t a qualification to become duat. Everyone is a dayia in everything they do (obviously to their own ability), the muslims traders understood that, which is why people converted.
@miqdaad Quite convenient to decide not to engage when you’ve been caught out! And don’t start saying that Muslim somehow added to your points. He gave his views in a clear way, which are somewhat different to Lubaabas. You on the other hand posed some silly questions, the answers to which are mostly implicit in her post anyway.
The questions were not to clarify her views, but to prove YOU were more superior. So much for accusing others of things you do yourself. It’s called hypocricy.
And you also revealed yourself to be a wimp: “4: Is it an obligation on all the muslims to expose their faith and selves to danger by venturing out into unchartered territories?”. Mostly people like you try to hide their real motive and interests using religious language. For example weak iman, better to stay within the Muslim areas etc. But you are a first in being stupid enough to say you might get attacked.
If anything, lubaaba was right in saying people like their comfort zones and are just plain lazy! I personally would now add that some like you try to cover that personal weakness with religious language!
Abdullah Says “The issue regarding level of iman has nothing to do with where one lives. The lesson from the hadith is to keep the company of good people who will encourage us towards good. Nor is this issue related to courage. So let’s not spin the issue…if you personally feel you will loose your iman without being surrounded by Muslim people, then that is your choice. But that isn’t a rule or guide for others.”
The hadith i mentioned is perfect for this example. Because in muslim populated areas you will find brotherhood as well as bad elements. But that brotherhood strengthnes your emaan, when you venture out to areas that are not populated by muslims then there is no brotherhood. So this affects your emaan and will wear it away until you end up just like the kuffar.
Abdullah also says “About the Kuffar. Your attitude is Yahudi and you should correct yourself. Non-Muslims are both Kuffar and potential Muslims. Yes they can be both at the same time. If our ancestors had this attiude we would never be Muslims. It is the responsibility of all muslims to be duaat – not just the scholars. If you read Islamic history, most of the early conversions in foreign lands were through Muslim businessmen who were ‘good Muslims’”
Correction Abdullah you need to read islamic history islam spread vast and wide due to one main cause which was Jihad (physical conquering of land). Yes there were examples of areas which islam reached through businessmen but this was not as you said yourselef “most of the early conversions”. Infact it was the least, so stop talking about history which you have not studied – just read the life of umar (ra) after he became the khalif.
Regaring the Kuffar – they are kuffar first before we can look at them as potential muslim. They have commited the most henious of crimes by rejecting allah and his prophet and engage in shirk. So they are to be reffered to kuffar as mentioned in the quran and hadith. Otherwise the surah would have been “say o potential muslim” instead of “say o Al-Kafirun”. We refere to these people and treat them as kuffar and we give dawah to them and the rest is with allah.
Abdullah says “Treating east London as sort of fort is totally silly and ignorant of the facts and history. Forts have a military function to protect from outside agression or invasion. East london is a small geographic area with a large concentration of Muslims – BUT still minority Muslim.”
I was referring to the brotherhood found in muslim populated areas which create a fort (spritually) just like the rememberance of allah is a fort against shaytan. So forts are not alwayys to protect from invasion but also to strengthen ones self. Read the preface of hisnul muslim the example given there is what i was refering to as fort.
@Shaykh Wiki By your own logic, the best forts are Muslim countries – that’s where you’ll get the most muslims. Unlike East London where if you drive 10 minutes either side, you’ll come across the Kuffar – but in Muslim countries you’ll be totally free from the kuffar and have the strongest of iman.
So please let us know when you’re doing Hijra? But I think you’ll find an excuse to stay using religious language…
You are really silly and you keep on going on about the same point again “if you dont like it then leave”. Again you keep on reading so much into my words that you are not understanding. The point i made was not my own logic but the words of the porphet that when you are amongst brothers your emaan strengthens so you are now belittling his words. I was refering to where there are brothers in this country, my reference to kuffar was where there are no muslims to balance it out. Obviously in east london there are still kuffar but there are also brothers too.
You are very very sad and you answer to anyones comments is “get lost”. I am openly saying that you have the characteristics of the munafiqueen so repent and change your characteristics before its too late. You are abusive and harsh when anyone questions anything you say, you have very limited knowledge of islamic history and no knowledge of the concept of hijra.
Now i know why abdullah wants us all to move out of east london so we all can bceome like him kuffar loving mad muslims who are willing to ruin our deen to please the kuffar. I have had enough with this guy everyone should boycott him since he has no valid arguments and spouts tottal rubbish all the time.
@Shaykh Wiki Of course it is not your words but the words of the prophet. Everything you say is words of prophet….
I won’t go into logical deduction. It won’t be understood by you. I never said ‘get lost’ – I said if you don’t like non-Muslims that much, you need to do Hijra. There’s a big difference. As I gathered when you get stuck you try to cover your pathetic excuses with religious language.
you accuse me of being harsh and abusive, yet you are the one who is accusing me of having characteristics of being a munafiq which isn’t harsh? Of course that is the manner of a very good muslim. so congratulations! Please name one case of my abuse? I only used the words ignornant and stupid (impolite but not swear words or abuse).
You say: “Now i know why abdullah wants us all to move out of east london so we all can bceome like him kuffar loving mad muslims who are willing to ruin our deen to please the kuffar.”
So does that every Muslim who’s moved out of East London has become like the kuffar, and ruined their deen (to please the kuffar)? And of course all the Muslims of UK must live in East London, right?
I would’ve made points on logical deduction but you wouldn’t understand.
And you and your friends believe in freedom of speech, so that you can keep on saying what you like – but if anyone says opposite you need to boycot? (”I have had enough with this guy everyone should boycott him since he has no valid arguments and spouts tottal rubbish all the time.”). What god given right do you have to organise boycotts? DO you own this blog? Or do you have a certificate from Allah saying you hold the universal truth?
What a strange self serving world you live in.
For the record: I agree with Lubaaba. It’s OK to live in Muslim majority areas, but it’s also useful to venture out. There is nothing unislamic about it. Else we would all be obliged to live in Muslim countries! For those who have VERY strong objections to Kuffar, and HATE them SO much should do Hijra. I DO use terms like Kuffar but ALSO consider them to be potential Muslims. I am not insecure to think that Muslims must be protected by staying cocooned in areas like East London. How is this view unislamic or must be boycotted?
@Abdalla true say wiki. modernism gone crazy, sounds like abdullaah works for quilliam foundation. btw, i don’t recall miqdaad saying that he was gonna get attacked in any of his posts! abdalla is not only a racist sell out but also a compulsive liar.
this doesn’t go to show that muslims aren’t attacked when in the minority. muslims were killed only 3 weeks ago by thugs when leaving the masjid infront of their grandchildren… so it DOES HAPPEN. ofcourse, abdullaah who was too busy watching x factor, has no sympathy for the poor sisters (and brothers) that are assaulted every now and again. he’d rather they left the country. rather, it may be worthy of him to speak to azad ali of this blog who held a senior position at the muslim safety forum. he may enlighten that narrow ‘pandering to the kafir’ mind of yours.
this is just abdullaah pretending to be a hard man but in reality, he has never had the courage to even raise his head and look a non muslim in the eye. yet here, ‘he is the bravest man in the whole of arabia’!
also, he still hasn’t justified why he has spelt his own name wrong, seeing that he calls us all ‘asian-centric’ for having spelt it right FOR him. maybe he is an illiterate white arab?
again he contradicts himself when he says that islam is ‘missionary’ but claims that the majority or the early muslims came to islam because of trade and business! the guy is a total and utter dimwit of a bafoon numbskull. perhaps he has many examples of these mass conversions at the hands of missionary trade.
most importantly, i think miqdaad raised some very pressing questions, which lubaaba hasn’t responded to and the other lame excuse of a spokesperson keeps dismissing without also responding to any of the questions raised. clearly, the subject is too intelligent and sophisticated for a backward extremist bigot like abdullaah.
it’s a shame that abdullaahs original posts were so nasty that the entire good discussion has been derailed by his foolishness. it is regrettable that i and others here felt coerced to respond to him with much harshness aswell. I fully understand if lubaaba wishes to abstain from this discussion at this point because of this.
BAN ABDULLAAH
….
@submission hold Thanks for the racist insults and I’m the wone who is apparently racist and bigotted? Name one racist thing I have said.
Brilliant insults btw. Keep up the good manners. And of course you are very tolerant of other opinions hence you want be banned?
So far you and your pals have failed to name one example of my abuse and foul language (add racist to this). But everyone can see the brilliant colourful lanaguage you use to describe me. Keep it up.
Exactly what part of my opinion: “For the record: I agree with Lubaaba. It’s OK to live in Muslim majority areas, but it’s also useful to venture out. There is nothing unislamic about it. Else we would all be obliged to live in Muslim countries! For those who have VERY strong objections to Kuffar, and HATE them SO much should do Hijra. I DO use terms like Kuffar but ALSO consider them to be potential Muslims. I am not insecure to think that Muslims must be protected by staying cocooned in areas like East London.”
Makes me modernist or panders to the kuffar or an extremist? And tell us about x factor, I do not watch it, maybe you do… when is it on?
BTW the phonetic spelling of the prophets name with the correct makhraj is ‘AbdullAh – with 1 A, NOT 2. Since you are so pedantic about it.
Keep up the good work representing your view point. I’m guessing you’ll be hurling more abusive insults along with casual racism… but claiming that I’m the racist bigot….
ah don’t be such a cry baby, abdullaah. The prophet’s FATHER’S name was ‘abdullaah and not the prophet’s! AND, it starts with an apostrophe and has 2 as as opposed to 1 A (i.e. ‘abdullaah)if you knew anything about transliterating or even pronouncing the arabic word in the correct makhaarij.
please just give up. you have been exposed…
Brothers please lets just keep to the discussion.
I found br.Muslim’s post VERY interesting. Subhanallah I didn’t even see it that way.
If we are going to continue the discussion, then please lets ALL leave out the unnecessary posts, and stick to the points raised.
if all agreed, then i’m out.
salaam.
@submission hold I meant the prohet’s father. That was an obvious error.
If you must really know ‘Abdullāh is not an Apostrophe but an opening single speech mark (opposite of Apostrophe). If one uses the proper ‘ain symbol then they should also use ā to show the elongation of a instead of double aa. But I don’t really want to get into this futile area which is not relevant.
You’re just bringing it up to point score. How have I been exposed? What am I supposed to have done? For staing my viewpoint I’ve been exposed?
You still have not answered by other questions: “So far you and your pals have failed to name one example of my abuse and foul language (add racist to this).” And how exactly am I racist or when have I used foul or abusive language?
Waiting for answers.
keep waiting buddy,
cos i’m out :)
Abdullah loves to deduce things from what i have said. You really keep on coming up with weird points.
I never siad that if you dont live in east london you are a sell out. Because we were talking about east london i referred to it. My point was muslim populated areas not just east london my foolish friend.
I made a call for boycott that does not mean i have a god given right, that is just what i feel is the bset thing and so i am calling for it. You do not need a decree from allah to boycott someone or something. You need to rectify your character since you have traits of the hypocrits. This is not harsh but advise so take it and dont be arrogant.
My point abouit staying in east london was to help preserve your emaan if you already live there. By venturing in to areas where there is no muslim community will erode your emaan slowly.
Subhanalla Abdullahs emaan is so strong and he feels he can take on the world because he wants to walk around without any security to his emaan.
Abdullah do you know how silly you are and how flawed your thinking is. Go on mr wishy washy go and praise your kuffar friends and tell them how much you love them and you wish to be like them.
Abdullah please tell me why dont you leave the country and make hijra? Since you keep on going on about it.
Abdullah said in another post “You seem to think we live in the medevil period. why don’t you go live in afghanistan – which is the closest tribal culture to the early islamic period”
This is the exact kind of narrowmindedness which he has. By trying to stick close to the manhaj and way of the prophet apparantley we are living in the medievil times. Astaghfirullah you are trying to refere to the time of the prophet as backward as this is what you were infering. Again you can see abdullah talks about afghanistan in such a bad way saying they are backward (medevil period as abdullah thinks we are so advanced and forward thinking that the medievil period was bad.
Abdullah i really dont know who taught you your islam but its is very diluted – oh sorry i remember now it was tariq ramadan who taught you since you kept on backing him and parising him and calling him a scholar when he obviously is not. Tariq ramadan the sell out and lover of the kuffar who speaks against muslims and not against the kuffar.
@Shaykh Wiki why don’t you just boycott me, if you feel that is best – instead of calling for a general boycott? Are you that insecure in your Īmān? That you must silence people who disagree with you?
Do carry on with your colourful language and insults. We’re all loving the excellent manners that you’re exhibiting.
You claim that I am deducing too much from what you’ve said, yet you claim I am wishy washy, with kuffar friends, and have the traits of a munafiq? What trait is that – maybe abusive racist insults? Show me one example. So far this question has gone un answered. But all I get is more racist insults and abuse…
And I have no reason to do Hijra, I’m happy to live in the UK which has a 3% Muslim population. Yet I can freely practise Islam. I have Muslim friends and non-Muslim friends. I only suggested that those who hate kuffar that much should do hijra. If you don’t hate them that much then it doesn’t apply to you.
Abdallah, Shaykh wiki and Submission on hold– please brothers can you stop this.
aki, i said i was out… gone…
@Captain
Assalamualikum akhi i apologise for my mannerisms thus far. I must admit that some of my words were heated and were not nesessary. I also refuse to reply or talk back with abdullah in this post since he is being very pety and irrational. No one needs to reply to abdulahs question of point out his mannerisms since you will all be able to find it in older post about the sacking of ramadan. It is prevelant and open for all to see.
Captian i will now take the stance of submission hold and boycott abdullah in this post.
wassalam
just though I’d share this clip of relevance to this discussion. Undercover Muslim asian reporters move to a white area and suffer hell. There are of course paralleles between this and the Prophet (saw) going to Taif (even though he did that openly delcaring the call to Islam), but perhaps highlights the question who is suitable/qualified to be the one to ‘venture out’ beyond even further, and does it not show that our communities are our safety too:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/panorama/hi/front_page/newsid_8310000/8310825.stm?ls
And a relevant quote to add to the previous link I posted. It’s from Tamanna Rahman, the sister who ‘ventured out’ of her ‘bubble’:
“I feel strongly that neighbourliness is a two-way street, but why would anybody attempt to go out of their way to get to know the community they have moved into, if that community has made you feel unwelcome for no reason but the colour of your skin?”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/panorama/hi/front_page/newsid_8303000/8303229.stm?ls
true say yusuf. just before, i comment further i would suggest that everyone to switch to the iplayer and watch the latest episode of panorama. Maybe then, just maybe, some of our sisters and brothers who believe in ‘making 70 excuses for the spiteful disbelievers’ will step out of their bubbles and give up their boxes of a hunky dory kushti life, rubbing shoulders with those british/english that hate and attack you.
Then again, probably not, theres plenty of love to go round. peace dudes and dudettes. Let’s go hug some trees. ciao.
P.S(DO NOT COMMENT IF YOU HAVEN’T SEEN THE EPISODE ENTIRELY, BEFORE YOU COME ONTO HERE CONDEMNING YOUR OWN MUSLIM BLOOD)
sr lubaaba? please see captain and submission’s post… let us know what you think of the panorama programme. subhaanallaah, the timing of the panorama programme could not have coincided with your discussion on bubbles better. Btw, some of the racists were saying the same thing that abdullaah is saying on this blog.
Which post ofmine bro??
I didn’t really post anything here other than to calm some brothers down.lol