Tariq Ramadan, Islamic scholar, a professor at several universities including Oxford in England – was sacked this week by a Dutch university and as advisor on integration to the City of Rotterdam. His crime was hosting a show on the Iranian channel Press TV. The university claimed that appearing on the Iranian television show was endorsing the policies of the Iranian regime.
So how does someone who is so highly regarded, appointed for two separate posts in the Netherlands, suddenly become ‘irreconcilable’? Of course, the issue is a lot more deeper than merely appearing on Press TV.
Show on Iran’s TV endorses the Iranian regime?
The joint statement of the City of Rotterdam and Erasmus University stated, Ramadan ‘continued to participate in this program [Islam & Life] even after the elections in Iran, when authorities there hard-handedly stifled the freedom of expression.’ So working for the station apparently meant endorsing the regime.
We are aware that Dr Ramadan unequivocally condemned the repressive policies in Iran. In fact, he has not only been critical of Iran but various other governments including Saudi Arabia, Syria, Egypt, Libya and Tunisia, where he is banned from travelling. On the other hand, Dr Ramadan has been a strong voice against the US invasion of Iraq and has been leading a non-violence resistance movement for Palestinians. He was also amongst the most prominent Muslims to condemn 9/11 – the terrorist attacks on the United States.
If we all accept the idea that to work for a channel that is state owned, is to support that state – then all those who work for the BBC must be guilty of supporting the Iraq war and all other state actions, legal and illegal. It seems like a strange concept – guilt by association. Yet it is increasingly becoming an accepted phenomenon, especially when it comes to Muslims.
On the issue of supporting Iran, we should also question the Dutch government for maintaining full diplomatic relations with Iran or this ‘repressive regime’ as the statement put it. Indeed, it has been the Dutch who have been more conciliatory with the Iranian regime with their trading relationships dating as far back as the 17th century.
Islam & Life
Those who may have seen any of the Islam and Life on Press TV, would know that it is a discussion programme with various contributors in the field of Islamic scholarship, community activists, men and women from all walks of life, Muslim and non-Muslim.
The guests hosted by Dr Ramadan are invited to give open and critical perspectives on various issues from politics to art, psychology and even love. Nowhere can one find even a small example of either Dr Ramadan showing support for the Iranian regime or his guests.
Double-speak
This accusation has been made before, not only in the Dutch press but also the French and other European media, they have criticised Dr Ramadan for apparently presenting one message for Muslims and another for the West. There has been no proof or evidence for this accusation – his books, various audio and video lectures are there for people to see.
His message is very consistent. In all my travels with him across Europe for both Muslim and Western audiences – I found him to be speaking the same language, same message. In fact, ironically, this has been the theme of his speeches when talking to ‘ulama and callers to Islam: speak the same message, be consistent.
As we can see, such accusations against Dr Ramadan do not stand. But, the issues are deeper and says more about the worrying trend in European politics of using Muslim or Muslim issues to win elections. Only recently in London we saw an MP, Jim Fitzpatrick (a minister no less) using a Muslim wedding ceremony to snipe at the London Muslim Centre and Islamic Forum of Europe to score political points.
It seems, if you are moderate or speak in a mainstream tone, within the existing institutional framework – then you are a suspect! You can only engage but on terms dictated by cynical ideologues. As Dr Ramadan puts it, “the real agenda is the politics of Muslim-baiting and fear…It is as if I in particular, and Islam in general, were being used to promote certain political agendas in the upcoming Dutch elections. Geert Wilders, who wins votes while comparing the Qur’an to Hitler’s Mein Kampf, casts a long shadow. I am cast as the cause of an outburst of political passions that is far from healthy”.
I once heard a shaykh say: ‘if on the one side Salafis call me Sufi and Sufis call me Salafi, I must be on the right path’. With the West, Dr Ramadan has been trying to build bridges, and many accuse him of being too Islamic; with Muslims he speaks of reform and contextualisation, many call him a liberal and a compromiser of religion.
With both sides agitated, Dr Ramadan must be doing something right.
To the people that plot and plan against Islam, Islamic figures or Islamic work, don’t they know that Allah is best of planners and everything will come to an end.
To the Muslim people that don’t like his views/speeches, simple thing is stop hearing him / reading his books. Or speak to him about it if you have issues.
May Allah give him a better job / role after this Blessed month.
A brother directed me to his site that has some great Ramadan messages on daily basis.
http://www.tariqramadan.com
May Allah guide all and bless them.
‘if on the one side Salafis call me Sufi and Sufis call me Salafi, I must be on the right path’, SubhanAllah when i read this line brother USAMA HASAN came to mind, now would you also say that he is doing something RIGHT?
Subhanallah! I find it totally absurd that you can suggest a justification of someone rejection of hudood in the name of ‘contexualisation’ on the basis of what other people call him. The salaf used to judge a person by what he said not who he was.
@Namla I’d suggest you actually read what people say and write – rather than just go along with the propaganda. Tariq Ramadan said the application of hudood by the many Muslim dictatorships is unfair BECAUSE it is only applied to the poor and women. It is never applied to the princes etc. This was not the purpose of sharia, there must be the rule of law – ie everyone must be subject to the same law. Because this is not done – he has called for a ’suspension’ – until the rule of law prevails!
Please try to understand these concepts before going on some emotional rant.
@Abdulla
So who is pumping this propoganda? Did Tariq not mention that madrasas in the west should be shut down? Did tariq not endorse democracy the system which is NOT copatiable with the shariah? And when did the muslim ummah give him the position of the leader of the muslim ummah when he went to denmark?
Did Tariq not mention that madrasas in the west should be shut down?
No, he didn’t actually. Read his books.
Did tariq not endorse democracy the system which is NOT copatiable with the shariah?
Yes he has, so has many other ‘ulama. Who said it was not compatible with shariah if it is fully understood?
And when did the muslim ummah give him the position of the leader of the muslim ummah when he went to denmark?
He didn’t go there as a Muslim leader – it was good that he went though: only way to communicate with people.
It was in this month of Ramadan that a very beautiful was revealed: iqra – simple really – read. That’s what the Muslim ummah have to do more so we can avoid labeling people and reach wrong conclusions.
Salaam Namla,
A moratorium is what he called for on the hudood and believe me it is different to rejection, please check the oxford dictionary. As Abdullah mentioned he only called for a suspension until justice, honesty and rule of law is established in the Muslim majority countries.
I applaud Prof. Tariq Ramadan, an intellectual giant and mujahid battling in many fronts; grassroots and in academia promoting justice and dialogue and speaking out against injustice whether carried out by non-Muslims or Muslims.
Prof. Tariq Ramadan reminds me the following two sayings of the prophet (saws);
1. “The best jihad is to speak the truth before a tyrant”
2. “Help your brother, whether he is an oppressor or he is an oppressed one. People asked, “O Allah’s Apostle! It is all right to help him if he is oppressed, but how should we help him if he is an oppressor?” The Prophet said, “By preventing him from oppressing others.”
I believe he is a witness to the above sayings of the prophet (saws) and because of his outspoken views against the tyrants and oppressors’ of this world he is banned to travel to many of these countries. Likewise he has come under fire from our co-religionists, like the Al-Qaeda inspired zealots for speaking out against their skewed interpretation of the sacred texts of the Qur’an.
Our prayers are with Prof. Tariq Ramadan, may Allah (swt) love and protect him.
Was-salaam
Abdul Kahar
IFE is an islamic movement Jammah – “They believed that this was the way to success, to preserve and strengthen Muslim identity in Britain, and contribute to the global Islamic Movement whose aim is to direct the Islamic process of social change.” (http://www.islamicforumeurope.com/live/ife.php?doc=sections)
Al Ikhwan Al Muslimun was a Jammah founded by Hassan Al Banna one of the figure heads of the Islamic Movement. To this day his vision, aims, objectives, methods and words are still being taught and followed.
Tariq Ramadan the grandson of Hassan Al Banna has openly said in a talk interview which i watched on TV where he said he does not follow nor is he on any of his grandfathers opinions/ways. He actually rejects his grandfathers views and ways.
Yet brothers of IFE a jammah which hold the views and ways of Hassan Al Banna in high regard still follow a “reformist” who is opposed this this way. Who is Tariq to say he is reforming the religion? who gave him the power and status of the ulema?
The deen is becoming wishy washy by a new trend of intellects who are trying to replace the ulema and are now trying to do their job!
Tariq is not needed in our community/ummah he will only water down our religion and “reform” the religion to a level which will be acceptable to the kuffar.
@Shaykh Wiki That is a silly argument. Does someone have to follow Hasan alBanna to be credible or be an Islamic scholar in your eyes? Hasan alBanna’s context (Muslim world, Khilafa just dismantled, under colonian rule) was very different to Tariq Ramadan’s western muslim minority perspective.
If he agreed with Hasan albanna on everything – then surely that would be silly. If you did a tiny bit of research you will find most Ikhwan in Egypt have moved on from Hasan alBanna. Because their world has moved on, it is 50 years since his death, the issues and politics are very different.
Obviously the major issues and principles which are universal stay the same.
As for Tariq Ramadan having the staus of ulama: his having studied the alim course of alazhar and studied with some of the scholars of Egypt, and the recognition of this by western universities by appointing him professor of Islamic studies – is why he has the status of ulama. That’s a lot more than you have or can achieve.
Maybe you need to realise that you do not appoint the scholars? People don’t get the status only after consulting with you.
Maybe you disagree with his views on certain matters, that is your right. But that doesn’t mean he must be a lay person.
As for the intellect and intelllectuals. If you checked Islamic history people like Abu Hanifa were the greatest intellectuals of their time. Intellect is what is required to deduce islamic rulings and answer the profound questions of our time. So far from being a term of belitlling, which are are trying to do, intellectualism is actually a good thing.
We have many madrasa which are churning out thousands of so called ‘alims’ they are all ulema apparently – but with some of the weakest intellects. Because their parents sent the bright siblings to study medicine and engineering. The dumb ones got to go to madrasa.
The problem with the ummah is not the intellectalism – but the lack of it!
You seem to have a perverse reverse snobbery against intellectuals (a bit like the American right, the same ones that promoted Bush and Palin – they were cheered on because they were dumb). The great Islamic scholars of the past always sought out the bright children to become their students, who had a brain to think.
Disagreeing with tteachers and past scholars is not bad. Abu Hanifa’s two students (Abu Yusuf & Shaybani) rejected most of the fiqh of their teacher, and gave alternative fiqi verdicts!
You really ought to learn your islam. and islamic history before you make such silly ignorant comments. Disagree all you like with tariq Ramadan – but argue the points and say why you disagree. Don’t do the dumb thing and make such stupid general remarks.
I wonder if d blog editors wil remove abdullahs posts he has called me stupid and ignorant? A few points tariq who is not a scholar and ikhwan have moved away from from the princples of hasan al banna which are the same princples of islamic movement so it is a bench mark. Tarig rejects the princples of dawah tarbiybah jamah hisbah and iqamat adeen. A scholar is recognised as a scholar when the other scholars recognise him as one. Based on that tariq is not a scholar maybe learned in the deen but not a scholar get your facts right. Finaly do you know me? How do you know if iam am not learned? That is extremley ignorant of you to say that without any evidence. Its amazing how brs of ife jump to the defence of a person like tariq who is extremley contraversial and his opinions dodgey and when your own brother azad was gunned down the same ife brs remained silent and left him to hang out dry. His point made on this blog was on a matter of huq and you abonded him!
@Shaykh Wiki We only have your words that Tariq Ramadan rejects the Islamic movement (IM). You need to point out references in his books or specific named speeches that he was said something relevant.
And what a silly ‘benchmark’ and measure of scholarship. Are you saying that the mufti of saudi arabia and mufti of al azhar who are not part of IM, or accept the IM are not scholars? Maybe we disagree with them but that doesn’t mean they are not scholars.
And for your most laughable claim that tariq ramadan ‘maybe learned in the deen but not a scholar’. what nonsense! if someone is learned in the deen that means they are a scholar. a scholar is someone who is learned in the deen! Again you insist on you arrogant demand that people can’t be scholars unless you and your group sanction it. you need to realise the world and islam doesn’t revolve around you.
about your so called ‘principles’ of IM – they are not princples but work programmes. ive just checked the ife website: according to your measure, IFE is not an IM because it doesn’t have ‘hisba’ (whatever that means in practice). And it doesn’t do iqamah adeen (maybe because in a non-muslim country that point isn’t relevant – again the issue of context). oh dear it seems even ife doesn’t live up hasan albannas ideas.
i don’t think i know you, but from your statements here, you cannot be ‘learned’. if you were you wouldn’t make such crude general and ignorant narrow-minded remarks about scholars. and accuse people of not being scholars because you disagree with them.
if you think tariq ramadan has got it wrong – you need to cite exactly what that is, and give your evidence of how he got it wrong. if you are a ‘learned’ you may use primary sources, else just stick to secondary sources. and if you are not academically minded (which i doubt) primary sources means quran and hadith. secondary means statements by other scholars who have said something releveant (obviouslt they would cite prirmary sources in their opinions.
Also, perhaps you need to calm down a bit before complaining. As Muhammad said, Iqra is what is needed: if you ‘read’ my comments I accused you of making ‘ignorant comments’ and making ’stupid remarks’. That is not the same as actually calling you ignorant and stupid. A bit like accusing some making kufr statements is not the same as actually calling them a kafir.
And while were on that point read surah saff (verse2) “Why do you say that which you do not do”. First you complain that i’m calling you ignorant and stupid, but then call me ‘extremely ignorant’! Don’t worry, unlike you I didn’t get offended, and not going to moan of hurt feelings. When discussing/debating you need to have thicker skin.
Abdullah just because you only read Tariqs books does not mean that Tariq has not said many things. He has conducted any interviews, hosted shows and attended panels on TV making many controversial comments.
If you actually read my point properly you would see that i did not mention the benchmark or scholarship i was talking about the benchmark of the Islamic Movement. Get you point right! Because the principles of Hassan Al Banna were the “benchmark” of the Islamic Movement like the principles of Mawdudi is the benchmark of the Islamic Movement this is what can be used to determine the manhaj of a person. Because IFE is an Islamic Movement jamah if they do not follow this manhaj which is the manhaj of the prophet and his companions then yes they have deviated from the correct method.
I have not said that a scholar is not a true scholar if they are not Islamic Movement. I have mentioned that Tariq is learned in the deen which the majority of muslims are to different degrees. That does not make them scholars. I may have studied in a madrassa so I am learned in the deen but a person who has a degree would be more learned in the deen. So get your point right scholars are on a different level and Tariq is not a scholar if he was you would be able to name me some recognised scholars who have endorsed him as a scholar?
Abdullah you mentioned “Again you insist on you arrogant demand that people can’t be scholars unless you and your group sanction it” So what group where you referring to here?
Hisbah is to enjoin the good and forbid the evil which is a duty of the muslim community if we are not engaging in this then we are all sinful. And iqamat addeen is a principle we all must believe in, and work towards. I never said we must establish the deen in the UK today but work towards raising the word of allah high. If we do not believe and work toward these principles then yes you are off the manhaj of the prophet because this is what he did, read the seerah!
Amazing the arrogance you portray so i assume you are an academic and look your nose down on other people. May allah forgive your arrogance especially in this blessed month.
Finally why did you not speak out when Br Azad was being gunned down for his comments which were about one of the pillars of the deen? Where were you then? It seem you and brother like you in IFE stayed silent, why was that? Was it due to you not believing in what he was saying?
And finally Abdullah please do not patronise me and act as if you are not an IFE member. You are not the only one who can check IP addresses. There are many brothers who can find that information out in many different ways!
On facts, i haven’t read any of tariq ramadan’s books. assumptions are not good.
thanks for letting us know your view that ife has deviated from the correct path, manhaj. and if you are ife member, what are you doing hanging around with deviants? you should join a group that are follow hasan albanna blindly – if it doesn’t exist you should set one up.
why do i need to produce others scholars endorsements about tariq ramadan? i just have his cv. if you doubt his credentials, you produce the evidence. show us how he doesnt understand usul, doesn’t know arabic etc. and give us the names of other scholars who have rejected tariq ramadan as a fraud!
And what has azad ali got to do with this? why you bringing him into this? if you don’t know the facts i suggest you keep quiet. my group signed the joint statement by many groups supporting azad and against the witch hunt, and we know how all ife brs and srs worked hard for azad when he had the problem. so if you want to slander people then go ahead. why don’t you name the ife people who stayed silent? again if you don’t know the facts keep silent. and don’t derail the discussion with this irrelevant issue here.
if you think im an IFE member – name me (and make a fool of yourself). unlike you i can’t check ip addresses so i don’t know who you are. if you can check it, that means you must be know an admin of the blog. meaning you have links to these people who you call deviants. make up your mind. and what does who i am have to do with anything? why can’t you stick to the main points? this is a cheap tactic of derailing the argument when you can’t defend your accusations. a hint: its so easy to mask the ip addresses!
stick to the topic on tariq ramadan (not azad and not who i am). withdraw your accusation that he is not a scholar etc or give an specfic example of something he said that was wrong islamically (which shows he cant be a scholar) and give your evidence.
so far we know youve made some general remarks without evidence.
Abdullah you obviously donts understand anything! A scholar is regarded as a scholar when other scholars endorse him as one. Otherwise i can be called a scholar just becuse i have studied the deen. You are throwing ridicolous point saround. I do not have to provide scholars who have rejected him as there are no scholars who have endorsed him. If no schoalr endorses him as a scholar then he is not.
You said “and the recognition of this by western universities by appointing him professor of Islamic studies – is why he has the status of ulama.” so if the kuffar see someone fit as a scholar then he is one? Every Muslim now knows that is the kuffar endorse someone there is a hidden agenda and he must be liberal and a person who can help the kuffar to change the religion. Look at quilliam foundation!
You cants just go around and say so and so is a scholar when there is no evidence to prove so. So what he studied in azhar and knows arabis i know a lot of people who have studied in medina, islamabad and azhar who also know arabic and have much more knowledge than tariq yet they still are not scholars but just a knwoeldgeable person in the deen. This is according to their selves and also that of other scholars.
Again you are assuming that i am a member of ife and i should create my own group. Yet you faild to answer my previous question,
Abdullah you mentioned “Again you insist on you arrogant demand that people can’t be scholars unless you and your group sanction it” So what group where you referring to here?
And yes you can mask your ip address but it can be found out silly! And I am not going to tell you if iam a blog editor or if i know someone who is or if i just know how to hack into websites and watch their activity. I will leave you to stew over it and worry because i know your scared. I dont have to provide your name because it would defeate the objective of the blog and blog posters.
The reason i raised the azad point was to show the double standards, and deviation from the deen. When people who speak about the truth they are shot down and when people speak about falsehood they are pushed to the top.
And a final clarification was i got muddled up with Muhammed point about reading tariqs books and forgot that he made the point and not you. Its was confusing when you both made the same exact point about iqra. You would easily be confused to believe you both were the same person!
I am suprised that Hussain Shefaar has not posted on the discussion since he was the one who mentioned that Tariq was a Scholar “Tariq Ramadan, Islamic scholar, a professor at several universities including Oxford in England” – Hussain.
I wonder why he has not openly posted in this discussion?
Jazakllah khair my dear br Shaykh Wiki – may Allah reward you for your sincerity and taking the time out to read my contribution. Thank you also for inviting me to further comment – I am one of those given the privilege to contribute to the blog and I have written my piece. I leave it to my readers to judge, to criticize, to correct and of course make up their own mind about what they think of what I have written. Readers can themselves respond and discuss freely within the comments section. May Allah bless us all this Ramadan.
Akhi Hussain Jazakallahu khair for your response to my request. But I would like to know based on what evidence did you make the statement “Tariq Ramadan, Islamic scholar, a professor at several universities including Oxford in England” ?
I would like to know how ou concluded that Tariq is a Scholar?
@Shaykh Wiki Like the people you know who are educated in the deen, Tariq Ramadan doesn’t go around calling himself an Islmaic scholar or Alim. It is we, who honour people with the title as alim/scholar as respect for their knowledge and learning. And dont mix (honourable) humility on your assiocates parts as being some kind of definite categorisation or who or what is a scholar.
and i’m not assuming youre a member of ife – just that you firstly were praising IFE as an IM jamah and condemned Tariq ramadan as someone who rejects IM and hasan al bannas principles. But now have declared IFE to be ‘deviants’ from the correct path. So can you name us one organisation who is true to the pure IM manhaj – that follows albanna blindly? If you believe in the pure mahaj so much, and no such pure IM jamah exists, you should set one up!
I wonder what ife has to say about you declaring them to be deviants? Why don’t you write to them?
About azad, you first accused some ife members of staying silent, leaving him to hang out to dry, and abandoning him (your exact words). Now you mention something about double standards, and deviation from the deen? What exactly are you accusing ife members of this time? What are you talking about?
If you think ife are deviants and accuse its members of treachery – what are you doing hanging around here? on a blog hosted by ife? dont just talk the talk – walk the walk. join a pure IM jamah (one that blindly follows albanna) – if none exists set one up.
maybe the reason why hussain shefaar doesnt want to respond is because he thinks your silly ignorant (meaning uneducated) remarks are not worth his time.
Abdullah you are just trying to avoid my point. Also you seem to be making your own conclusions about what i have not said. I never said IFE are devaint but yes their manhaj is not on full accordance to that of the Islamic Movement – which is the manhaj of the companions. I never said you have to blindly follow hassan al banna but yes his principles were the same principles of the companions. So that is why if you following hassan al bannas principles you are following the principles and manhaj of the companions.
There may be many reasons why ife only adopt parts of the IM manhaj which i do not know. So iam trying to help correct this by hilighiting this issue by mentioned the abondenment of Hisbah and iqamat addeen. I have spoken with IFE members and remember a time when IFE had these two principles as part of their manhaj. They have changed this and i do not know why? from what i have seen of IFE they are the only jamamh i know which are closest to the true manhaj and iam not like a slalfi who would brand them as deviant straight away but would like to encourage them to the correct manhaj.
Correction abdullah you and your silly points of “blindly follows albanna” and “your group” etc are just trying to derail the discussion and divert the main point. And by the way you still have not answere my question – “Again you insist on you arrogant demand that people can’t be scholars unless you and your group sanction it” So what group where you referring to here?
Abdullah unless you are Hussain Shefaar why are you trying to speak on his behalf? My quesion still stand to Hussain please provide the evidence/justification for calling Tariq a scholar?
Finally my point about the people i know who are knowledgable, you missed my point, i said even scholars do not refere to them as scholars. So again a scholar is called a scholar when other scgholars endorse him as one. So please name me the scholars who have endorsed Tariq as a scholar?
I based my claim of Dr Tariq Ramadan being a ’scholar’ based upon the following (though I understand people may have their own definitions of what makes a ’scholar’ of which I respect):
Professor Tariq Ramadan holds MA in Philosophy and French literature and PhD in Arabic and Islamic Studies from the University of Geneva. In Cairo, Egypt he received one-on-one intensive training in classic Islamic scholarship from Al-Azhar University scholars.
Prof. Tariq Ramadan is Professor of Islamic Studies (Faculty of Theology at Oxford) He is also a Visiting Professor (holding the chair : Identity and Citizenship) at Erasmus University (Netherland)
He is currently Senior Research Fellow St Antony’s College (Oxford), Doshisha University (Kyoto, Japan) and at the Lokahi Foundation (London).
@Shaykh Wiki What you said originally is clear for all to see: “if they do not follow this manhaj which is the manhaj of the prophet and his companions then yes they have deviated from the correct method.” Aren’t people who deviate from the correct method, deviants by definition? Perhaps you are now backtracking…
If everyone must follow the method of albanna to be on the correct path, without deviation – then that is called blind following. The method of albanna is his ijtihad – which can be rejected or amended by other scholars or organisations. that is called evolution of fiqh. remember abu hanifas two students rejected most of his rulings!
what is this hisba, you go on about. it was never a work programme. enjoing the good and forbidding the evil is the general aim of all islamic organisations. it is not a specific programme or activity! it was never a work programme of any IM organisation or ife. when did you decide to add this on?
Now that hussainhas asnwered you, do you now think i am hussain, or was it muhammad last time? what other paranoid accusations are you going to make. if you want to hack in and check the ip addresses, go ahead and break the law…
about your learned associates not being endorsed as scholars despite their learning. maybe they dont have the intellect or are not intellectual enough to be scholars?
now that you have revealed your paranoid narrowminded views and have been shown to be nonsense – will you now apologise and retract. or is your pride going to get in the way?
abdullah a group may deviate but that does not mean they can be brought back to the correct manhaj. Based on what hassan al banna said his principles were according to the principles of the companions. Get it right and stop trying to read between the lines when there is nothing to read. The point is not blindfollowing get it righ its the PRINCIPLES. Or are you not educated enough to understand that. You follow who ever is on these principles and if they move from it then you dont follow their path. If that meant Tariq was on these principles then i would have happily followed what he said but he has deviated from this and that is the reason why he is being rejected. I am not the one blind following maybe its you with your constant support of Tariq blindly.
Hisbah is an intergal part of any jamah of the IM. That is what Ikhwan did when it started, it is a fardh collective duty. It has been part of the metholodogy and was part of the metholodgy of the companions. So please anseer my question does Tariq follow the manhaj of the islamic movement Tarbiyyah, Jamah, dawah, Hisbah, Iqamat addeen? If he does not then he is not on the way of the companions!
Stop defending a man who is clearly moved into dangerous areas and is highly contraversial.
Abdullah you can interpret what ever you like from my words about who your are or are not it realy doesnt bother me! And if you think iam breaking the law then report me to the police! You shouldnt make assumptions so easily.
And believe me the individuals i know are more intellectual than Traiq so that disproves your point.
And abdullah you still seem to have not answered my question “Again you insist on you arrogant demand that people can’t be scholars unless you and your group sanction it” So what group where you referring to here? What are you trying to cover up/hide answer my question!!!
Finally you also have not answerd my original question which scholars endores Tariq as a scholar? Only a scholar can endorse a person as a scholar FACT!
Hussain Jazakallah Kahir for your response, and very prompt it was indeed!
Correct me if iam wrong but you are not a scholar? So you cannot endorse Tariq as a scholar?
Just because a person has many degrees and is endorsed by the west as a scholar does not mean he is a scholar. So please tell me which scholars have endorsed Tariq as a scholar? Iam still waiting!
@Shaykh Wiki only hassan albanna was on the right principles, and not following him on this is deviating. And this isn’t blind following? You may not see the obvious, im sure other will see the silly nonsense youre stating.
what a joke about hisba, you need to sort out your terminology, and your understanding of what constitues IM. anyone who knows anything about IM will see youre talking rubbish.
about your learned associates being more intellectual than tariq ramadan – what a laugh! first you negatively referred tariq ramadan of being a ‘intellectual’. but now you say your associates are more intellectual than him and also not scholars! your associates are worse than tariq ramadan then! your ignorant argument has come full circle.
learn islam, learn about IM and but don’t give out your judgements here or anywhere else. clearly you don’t have the intellect to have a coherent rational argument.
ignorant reaciotnaries like you do more damage than good to the islamic cause. you seem to think we live in the medevil period. why don’t you go live in afghanistan – which is the closest tribal culture to the early islamic period. it might be to your liking.
Abdullah you are becoming very childish. Again i will repeat my self the principles, YES THATS PRINCIPLES of IM are to be followed! So If hassan al banna uphled these principles then yes we follow him in his good and if he does anything that is differnt from that manhaj then we abstain from following him there. Likewise if mawdudi and Syed Qutub followed this manhaj then we would follow their way unless they deviate from it. This is not blind dollowing, blind following is when you follow a personality wether they are right or wrong. Also we never follow personalities we follow the princiles so that is why we said if the individual deviates then we do not follow them! So this is not blind following personalities.
Please get it right and stop spouting you usual rubbish in such a childish manner grow up.
Secondly regaring the learned individuals i know the term intellectual i was using was refering to their intellect. Dont you seem to get my point here! If a person is more clever than another they are referred to as being more intellectual. Read carefully abdullah!
So Abdullah since you are so well versed in the metholodogy of IM please tell me what it is? I am dying to know the answer? Or maybe you will not answer my question like you have not answered my other ones?
Everyone can see on this blog you are avoiding my questions so i will repeat them again and please answer them this time!!!
And abdullah you still seem to have not answered my question. You said “Again you insist on you arrogant demand that people can’t be scholars unless you and your group sanction it” So what group where you referring to here? What are you trying to cover up/hide answer my question!!!
Finally please name me the scholars who have endorsed Tariq as a scholar? Iam still waiting!
Why were you mentioning Afganistan, what has that got to do whith this discussion? How have i said in any way we should live in the medevil period? You really need to stop seeing things and actually read what i have said.
Blind following does not only mean following of people, it also means following of ideas and opinions.
If you think there is only one reading, understanding of the seerah and the prophetic method – then you are more ignorant than I thought. If everything was so black and white – why did hasan albanna need to devise his principles. Was everyone before him stupid and ignorant? albannas work programmes were his ijtihaad for his time and place. later generations can amend that or even reject that if they have the need, according to their own ijtihaad.
I rest my case: now your narrow minded, blind following is plain for all to see.
Yes you should follow blindly the method of the prophet and his companions. They are the one on the corret path. And the metholodgy of Jamah, Tarbiyyah, Dawah, Hisbah and iqamat addeen were the priciples which they upheld and they achieved success in this life and hearafter through them. So are you saying that the companions (the sucessful generation) did not follow these principles?
But as usual and to tell you the truth i did not expect anything different. You will not answer my questions just like amin did not in another post you are the same. You keep on tyring to dodge my questions becasue you obviously cant answer them or have something to hide. This is apparent for everyone to see. So once again i will ask my questions which are below,
1.You said “Again you insist on you arrogant demand that people can’t be scholars unless you and your group sanction it” So what group where you referring to here?
2. Please name me the scholars who have endorsed Tariq as a scholar?
3. Why were you mentioning Afganistan, what has that got to do whith this discussion? How have i said in any way we should live in the medevil period?
I await your response.
@Shaykh Wiki You are totally ignorant of Islam and Islamic history. I suggest you read the hadith in Bukhari relating to the Prophet telling the Sahaba to pray Asr at Bani Quraiza. Some of them prayed before because the waqt had come other decided to wait until they actually reached the place as the prophet instructed. The prophet approved of both actions.
The lesson here is that blind following is ‘not’ required! The second point is that the seera and the prophetic method is subject to interpreation. thus people can come to different conclusions of what the prophetic method is! if the sahaba can disagree of a direct order of the prophet, don’t you think scholars can differ on the ‘lessons’ from the seera.
You have now proven yourself to be a ignorant. not only that but also arrogant because you will not back down and see the obvious flaws in your statements.
and using this ignorance accuse other learned people and scholars of being deviants. how dare you. who are you to accuse?
instead you go on about some stupid question you insist on being answered:
1) i was not referring to any sepcfic group. but people who think like you. not only do you promote blind following, but it seems you read everything literally without any intellect. remind your friends not to crack any jokes when youre around, they might have to spend the rest of the year explaining the punch line to you!
2) that one has already been asnwered by hussain. maybe not to your liking. if you dont consider him to be a scholar no one is forcing you. no one is asking you to give bayah to him. i also dont agree with him on many issues but unlike your ignorant stance i like to debate the issues and argue the points. instead of this monotnous rant.
3) Lol. If you seriously expect me to answer this one you are a literal, blind following, narrowminded dimwit.
Abdullah you have to provide evidence that Tariq is a scholar. You CANNOT give Traiq that status, by just regurgitating his CV as that does not mean he is scholar. The rule is that a person is a scholar when other scholars recognise him as one. So NO hussain has not answered my question nor have YOU. So i will ask again; Please name the scholars who have endorsed Tariq as a scholar? If there is none then he is not a scholar and you need to retract your statment that he is a scholar and so does hussain. The issue is not about the evidence provided not being to my liking, because you have not provided the evidence according to the what the Scholars say. Provide the evidence or retract!
My second question was specific. You mentioned “My group” so you were directly infering that i have a group or am part of one. So please name this group as you seem to have more knowledge than me about this mysterious group? And yes you were refering to a speific group “DIMWIT” (as said by you)
And yes i expect you to answer my 3rd question. You and your narrowminess is why you talk about afganistan and tribal life. Because you think you are so andavced and keep thinking outside the box. But the problem is the box is islam and you and your likes wander outside the box of islam and if you knew your islamic history you will know the outcome.
Althought blind following the prophet is not necessary if you do you will be garunteed success. Do we all not want to be successful? so whats the problem, you just want to divide the ummah and like divisions with your statments of using your own ijtihad.
Again your words shows your snobbery and the fact you love to look your nose down at people who you consider lower than you. You are the arrogant and ignorant one if you look at yourself as higher than others. You are stubborn minded and are not willing to listen to other peoples arguments. You keep on trying to interpret my words when there is noting to interpret.
You seem to have taken my posts personally and have reacted in a manner not called for e.g. dimwit, ignorant, stupid, arrogant, etc. Thus i have then in return said the same, all you are doing is runing any decent reputation you had amongst people. Remember i know who you are and I can see you IP address and home/work address where you post from. So please be careful who you make enemies out of. Please cut out the name calling!
subhanallah! speaking of adab of ikhtilaaf! you 2 brs have gone about this completely the wrong way! i dont beleive that TR is a scholar, nor his his over-compluctaed contexualisation thesies relevant to save save the plight of the ummah these days. This is my opinion, and i believe that a scholar is not characterised by the information he holds in his mind. if such is the case, then iblees is the greatest alim on the face of this planet! You could have the longest CV, that doesnt make you a \’scholar\’ who can be referred to as an \’inheritor of the prophet saas\’. True knowledge makes one closer to Allah, and establish it in the way it was done by the companions. TR unnecessarily spills a can of worms by going into nitty gritty acedemic discussions irrelevant to the average muslim. as umar RA prayed to allah to give him the imaan of a bedouin. IM is the comprehensive struggle of the prophet to establish the light of this deen, including its principles, actions and methods.
let us hold our tongues, and stop exchanging name-callings and discuss the deen in the true spirit of ramadan.
it doesn’t appear that br shefaar mentioned what subject dr tariq studied in azhar (islamic scholarship isn’t a degree subject is it?), what the qualification WAS and WHO he studied one to one with and for how long.
also, i am disgusted to see that unlike br shefaars good manner, abdullah is very vindictive, nasty and launching personal attacks via namecalling. I would refer him to the user guidelines
“… but personal attacks (on authors, other users or any individual), harassment and mindless abuse will not be tolerated. We urge everyone to focus on intelligent discussion of topics… For the sake of robust debate, we will distinguish between constructive, focused argument and smear tactics… we will consider removing any content that others might find extremely offensive or threatening. Please consider your impact on others when making your comments or contribution.”
Given the unprecedented deletion of more than a hundred and something posts on an earlier article, i would have thought administrators would have intervened by now.
There have been a many an intellectual person on this planet, such as darwin, einstein, plato and other idolised leaders of disbelief that were endorsed by the entire world as intellectual. Yet this cannot be true intellect as the sound intellect only guides one to the truth and the existence of god, belief in him and his obedience.
That is why many who are in the profession and are professors of studying the signs of allaah such as Patrick moore and stephen hawking are referred to as ‘intellectuals’ or ‘academics’ when their so called intellect contradicts innumerable references in the quraan, “such are the signs of allaah, for men of intellect… for those who comprehend… for the ulul albaab…”
David attonborough was engaged his entire life studying the creations of allaah, yet he produced a s very recent series of documentaries outlining his support for the evolution darwinist monkey idea. Did i forget to mention that salman rushdie, a former ‘co religionist’ aka former muslim, is a huge intellectual? Point made.
That established, this isn’t sound intellect nor academia from the muslim viewpoint. to return to Dr tariq, one shouldn’t start offering free titles away to anyone and declare them scholar, as the noble status of the scholar is a lofty one and the responsibilty a profound one. I don’t believe that dr tariq would agree that he is an islamic legal authority and not purely out of humility. So please, it isn’t all about intellectualism. Intelectualism is an excuse and a failed attempt for the non scholarly to appear credible in front of the titanic scholars of islaam. Does dr tariq hold an ijaazah in any field? This is also another way of knowing who is a scholar alongside what wiki mentioned that he needs to endorsed a scholar by other ulamaa.
The madrasah system in the uk and indo/pak region may not be churning every student into a scholar, but one or two every year are definately shining scholars for this ummah. Your damning approach to the madrasahs is very naive br abdullah. The rest of the madaaris in the world are definately producing numerous scholars, just because they aren’t tv celebs like dr tariq, doesn’t make them anything less. Also, the madaaris, according to your view is actually doing a huge service to the ummah as the army is doing the western nations. Your description would suggest that all the ‘dumb’ ones of society end up in madrasah and are completely turned around into example citizens and standardbearers of their religion. What other institutuion can do this?
Your shallow view of the intellectuals also makes me wonder why the intellectuals didn’t choose islamic study but opted for mechanics or medicine? They don’t even take madrasah study on later in life… what a waste of thier intellect because if they DID value their intellect, then they would have expended it studying the islamic sciences for their entire lives.
btw, dr tariq and other ISLAMIC ulama and intellectuals such as imam asshafi’ee, imam a haniifah and their students really don’t compare. Rather, a comparison is an open insult to these noblemen.
POINT: please refrain from exalting people more than they truly deserve! (based on valueless benchmarks such as intellectualism on its own)
btw, again… those of you who have heard of mufti taqi uthmaani or the likes of shk akram nadwi will know that they are to a certain degree part of this madrasah system that you look down on br abdullah, while these ulamaa and their madaaris produce some of the most amazing islamic finance analyst/consultants, judges of law and even scientists or doctors the likes of Dr Zakir Naik.
intellectualism done, i move onto blind following. (just before i do, i would like to say that i am not a student at a madrasah or a signed up member of the deoband/tablighi tareeqah but thank allaah, he taught us to acknowledge and give credit where it is due and taught us to correct and fix errors when and where they appear. i.e. i do not blindly follow any group, even though i work actively IN one, as that prevents me from seeing the good in others and the flaws in ourselves)
Taqleed, blind following is as wiki had said, an unshakeable stubborn following of a personality or idea despite all its flaws. Good examples are of the nation islam when black men turned to islam but wouldn’t acknowledge that the interpretation of elijah muhammad was blasphemous. another is of yasser arafats group, fatah, who 50 years ago engaged in defending the holy land with arms but his followers blindly followed him until today to abandon the defence of the holy land and have become allies of the jews and enemies of allaah.
So what to do? I think it would be safe to say that one is only allowed to blindly follow allah and his messenger sas and even the ijmaa’ of his sahaabah. This should be the benchmark for measuring everything else, intellectualism or group/organisation or leader /personality as this benchmark is the quraan and sunnah, the sublime truth. “…we believe in the messengers, what they taught and we say ‘we heard and we obeyed’…” tmq.
“hold fast the rope of allaah” tmq
” Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path. ” tmq
“i have left you two things if you hold onto, none can misguide you, they are the quraan and my sunnah” hadeeth (please excuse some minor paraphrasing as these are off the top of my head)
Now, please stop repeating the notion that nothing in the quraan is fixed, nothing in the seerah is clear and everything is open to interpretation as that is the most easiest and dangerous routes to disbelief. Even the fitnah between ali ra and uthmaan ra is clear, even though most of us don’t know or study it.
The quraan mostly contains muhkamah verses while also containing some mutashaabihah verses and allaah says that the ulamaa believe in all of them while those in whose hearts is a desease prefer to delve into the ambiguous mutashaabihah verses.
Loyalty is to the truth, allaah and his messenger and all those that are loyal to these things. not to any group or other idea or personality. In this way, it is universal and timeless… it isn’t limited to any scope of an individual or his errors.
Some of the above are basic usool of the deen that is evident from the time of pious predecessors. people like me and abdullah should really study our usool before calling others arrogant, stupid or dumb. I take most offence at how you ask people to leave and go to afghanistan in the nazi bnp way as though you hold a monopoly on this deen wal i’aazhabillaah. No one has the right to speak to another fellow muslim in this way. Only allaah makes those decisions. You should hide your face in shame br abdullaah as that was a very cheap shot. Besides, what do you dispute with when it comes to the afghani way of life? This is British supremecasim coming from the children of paki immigrants. Your mind still appears to be colonised many decades after the brits left! It is the afghans that are FREE, allaahu akbar.
Now, as there ARE somethings that may appear unclear, or complicated for the lay man in this deen or the modern day brings new twists to established ahkaam – it further illustrates the dire need and value of true ulamaa. That is why not any academic nor intellectual can be declared islamic scholar by laymen such as ourselves. The complicated interprations is the job of qualified, endorsed ijaazah holding ulamaa, not people who finish a masters or are doing a doctorate. Even in the uk, only can the queen award a citizen the title SIR/lady for their outstanding achievemnt or contribution to their field of speciality. You and I can’t start declaring any odd person a Sir…
I am yet to return to the point of hasan banna, IM, MB manhaj and blind following. Let us fast today.
@izzuddeen firstly, thank you for alerting me to the user guidelines. i shall refrain from referring to shaykh wiki in an overtly unpleasant manner. it’s ramadan afterall. it also states that dicussions should be relvant to the topic. so i’ll (try to) only address the those relevant points.
what’s been missed out is that i have said i am not a great fan of tariq ramadan and have not read any of his books (as far as i can recall). but like you said i try to give credit where it is due. it is obvious he is very learned (both islamically and otherwise), an academic and intellectual.
but he does not claim to be an ‘alim’ or call himself one. so i also would not call him a shaykh etc. so we agree there.
he is however a ’scholar’ in the sense that he has a phd, and is a professor at univerity. he has been referred to as an ‘islamic’ scholar because his subject is islam. whether that qualifies him to give fatwas is debatable, we don’t know his exact mastery of the islamic sciences. but important i think is that he doesnt call himself a shaykh or says his speeches, writings etc are fatawa.
you’re obviously right that the great imams combined ilm and intellect, and tariq ramadan does not compare to those giants. im sure he would also not dare compare himself to them.
so this question of this whether he is an islamic scholar or shaykh etc is futile, because the answer depends on ones definitions.
the real question is the approach – is he qualfied to raise questions, provide analysis and challenge ulema. The must be yes. Islam allows every single person to raise questions and even provide answers. Whether those are valid, or well argued soon becomes apparent. [Just as any ordinary muslim can potentially lead prayers - the incompetent ones will reveal themselves to not know much quran, have bad tajweed or even not know rules of salah.]
so i again repeat that if we think Dr tariq ramadan has written or said something contrary to islam – we sshould state it, and provide the evidence (or provide another ’scholars’ refutation). what isn’t right is to condemn people with slurs and derogative usage of ‘intellects’ etc. that is an unislamic cheap tactic. the islamic thing to do is to challenge and refute if we think they are wrong, not slur people. this was what i found objectionable with ’sh wiki’. he doesn’t mention what ramadan said or did that he found wrong – but just decides to attack the individual.
about ur mentioning of darwin, patrick moore and others, i also find that irrelevant and somewhat distateful. because it gives the impression again that ramadan is just another intellectual like these people – and therefore doesn’t know anything about islam. whether we can him islamic scholar or not, we have to acknowledge that his subject is islam! he may not be shaykh or mufti but he is certainly learned in the deen.
We may not like some of his conclusions, but that doesn’t change the facts of his knowledge of the subject.
on the issue of degrees not been ijazas, you should not that the whoe system of the modern graduation was invented by muslims in spain. a degree is an ijaza from the institution declaring you to be comptent in that subject. a phd requires a supervisor (ie teacher) and other examiners, who declare you competent in the field of your study.
it would also be the case with madrasas, the institution itself gives you certificate saying you have graduated etc. so for most people ijaza means a certificate from an instituion.
as for my claim about the not so intellectual going to madrasah etc: you’re right that there are some greats who have come through the madrasa system. but compared to the hundreds of thousand if not millions who go throught the system, what % are they? See my point. That doesn’t mean western education is all that better btw.
which means we should deal with people as individuals, and what they ectually say and do. not because they went to madrasa or a western university. that was my point! remember your words give credit, where its due. the inverse of that is don’t condemn for the sake of it.
about the blind following point. I said the prophet does not expect blind following, and gave an example. Wiki then said that though not required to, its the way to guantee success? How silly was that?
The prophet wanted us to think about what he was saying, because not everything is black and white, and then aplly the ruling. that is exactly why we need scholars – do work out exactly what was meant, what the ruling is etc.
obviously some issues are clear cut, and does not need interpretation (pray 5 times, zakat, pork and drinking haram, certain punishments for certain crimes etc etc) you have to accept them if you consider yourself muslim. so please do not use the cheap tactic of imply i said everything is subject to interpretation, i did not!
you say “I think it would be safe to say that one is only allowed to blindly follow allah and his messenger sas and even the ijmaa’ of his sahaabah. This should be the benchmark for measuring everything else”
which brings us onto the issue of IM and its manhaj. the IM essentially is about reforming the ummah and a restoration of islamic rule. How that is done is a matter of ijtihaad. that means there maybe other conclusions (eg nusra of Hizbut Tahrir). It also means the original injtihaad of albanna may be amended or even rejected. blind following of albanna is not required. groups like ife and others do not have to blind follow albanna. not doing so does not make them deviants.
islam isn’t all or nothing. there are some issues which we just obey (following) others are matter of ijtihaad, which we are freee to follow a scholar or group we trust. if we sincerely believe the tablighi jamaat is the correct manhaj then we will be rewarded for that. if we think IM is the correct manhaj, then we will be rewarded for that. we cannot condemn others as ‘deviants’ on matters of ijtihaad, the most we can say is that ‘we’ (or our shaykh) beleive/s the others are wrong.
like you said its ramadan. lets fast. no more futile discussion of is the other ramadan (tariq) an islamic scholar. he is and he isnt, depends on your definition. is he a mufti that gives fatawa? no and he doesnt claim to.
Abdullah i never said you have to blindly follow Hassan al banna so please correct your self. And alhamdullah you have reverted from slandering me and defaming my comments and interperting my comments in a way which it was not made in.
A scholar in the islamic field means Shaykh/mufti. So Tariq is not a scholar that is the main point. He is revered in the western world as a scholar but not in the muslim world. The main reason why i have pursued this point is because in our community if you call someone a scholar it is automatically precieved as is he is a shaykh who can give fatwas. So due to this reason we should be careful on what labels we use.
We follow a cetain manhaj because we believe this was the way of the prophet and is the correct manhaj which will return the ummah to its greatness and save us from the fire. So that is why the islamic movement has set principles but its implememntation methods differ. the problem is when the movemnets principles are not adheared to and forgotten and even replace which is the great problem.
Yes i did start to mention some point about tariq but then changed course to takle one issue which was the title of scholar. Once that issue had been put to bed i was going to go into the actual statements of tariq which have caused him to deviate from the islamic movement, the same movement principles he was brought up on
“abdullah a group may deviate but that does not mean they can be brought back to the correct manhaj. Based on what hassan al banna said his principles were according to the principles of the companions. Get it right and stop trying to read between the lines when there is nothing to read. The point is not blindfollowing get it righ its the PRINCIPLES. Or are you not educated enough to understand that. You follow who ever is on these principles and if they move from it then you dont follow their path. If that meant Tariq was on these principles then i would have happily followed what he said but he has deviated from this and that is the reason why he is being rejected.”
‘The correct Manhaj, the pure Manhaj,’
I meet a lot of people who refer to this word – Manhaj simply means way or methodology of doing something. So which manhaj are you referring to ie in relation to what? Is it in Aqeeda, Mustalah Hadith, Usool, or Uloom ul Quran or what. What is this manhaj you constantly refer to?
Again which particular principals are you referring to when you say HB was on the principals of the companions.
Confusion between legal ijtihad and the work programmes of leaders.
The work programmes, framework and listing of priorities of Hasan al Banna or any other leaders of Islamic groups do not always fall into the category of Fiqh (Islamic Law) per se and therefore are not always ijtihad in the legal sense. They may arise out of and be linked with the certain usooli and fiqhi issues like the obligation of dawah, restoration of ruling by shariah etc. But precisely how they go about fulfilling certain obligations is often dictated by their social, economic and political environments as well as numerous other factors.
What I mean is they (his work programme and principals) are not direct responses to legal questions so they cannot be called fataawas as im sure no one called Hasan alBanna a Mufti. Therefore there is no issue of someone who doesn’t follow his work programme of being a deviant or falling into haram or ruining his aqeeda. Its also useful to refer to the shariah terminology as deviant is not an Arabic word with any shariah connotations. So by deviant do you mean mubtad’I, fasiq, etc